John McCarthy - Young People and Pornography

There is a large quantity of pornography on the Internet; many images are extremely graphic and sexually violent. Some of the Internet pornography traffic is so extreme that it is illegal to possess in New Zealand; most often these images are of children being abused.

What effect does viewing such material have on young people? Curiosity may lead a young person to a pornography site, but how does he or she react to the material there? Parents, school staff and others who work with young people may be unsure as to what is 'normal' behaviour for young people when it comes to pornography, and what is behaviour that should cause real concern.

Internet Safety Group member, John McCarthy, is Director of the SAFE Network, Auckland's sexual offender treatment programme. SAFE deals with offenders of all ages, from adults to boys as young as 10. We have asked John to be our first interview subject on Netsafe, and to answer questions about pornography and young people.

If you have further questions for John McCarthy, you can e-mail him at queries@netsafe.org.nz.

Question 1
Is it only males that look at pornography?
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"It seems that pornography is mostly produced by males for males and that females are not great users of pornography themselves. There's some evidence that women are users of pornography in the context of relationships so that there are couples who would use pornography or sexual imagery as part of their sexual activity. But there is no evidence that I'm aware of that women use pornography by themselves. And what we are going to be talking about in this interview is pornography used by males.

Its also interesting to note that women's sexual offending against children, or sexual abuse of children, is different from males sexual offending against children, in that women mostly will sexually abuse a child in the context of a relationship. It will be for the purposes of building a relationship often, whereas with male sexual offending it will mostly not be about relationships, it will be about meeting their own needs and may often involve violence and lots of coercion and force. It is interesting to compare the characteristics of female sexual offending and potentially their use or participation in viewing pornography. It may have similarities."

Question 2
Focusing on adolescent boys, is it normal behaviour to be interested in pornography?
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"I think sadly it is and while I would never suggest that it is useful or a good thing for boys to be viewing pornography, I think we have to accept that most adolescent boys are looking at pornography or sharing pornography around with each other and that falls into my range, certainly, of what is normal adolescent boy behaviour. I think that while we say that it is normal that adolescent boys will look at pornography, there are some characteristics about this that are important to be aware of. I think mostly that's driven by curiosity and that it will be of a relatively small amount. It will be occasional use and it will mostly be pornography that involves people of the same age as them or older. And I think those are important characteristics because the type of pornography use that we really should worry about (when we start to talk about the Internet, we will talk some more about that) is quite different to that and the boys behaviour will be different to what I would characterise as that normal, curiosity driven behaviour.

A number of people have expressed concern over the years that possibly viewing pornography, or even viewing pornography involving children, might lead onto adolescent males becoming sexual offenders. There's no evidence of that in the literature at all, so while I'm not saying that's a good thing and adolescent boys should be out there looking at images of children, it doesn't necessarily follow that because they look at those images, they're going to grow up to become a paedophile. It is still possible that adolescent males will look at images of children and find images of children, particularly on the Internet, and images that involve violence and even quite bizarre sexual practices, and that they will still be driven by curiosity rather than any other motive when looking at those. I mean adolescent boys, as most adolescents are, are curious creatures. I think that what we find in treatment programs, where we are treating boys that sexual offend, is that many of those boys had never looked at pornography, and yet they still sexually offend. And many of them had begun their sexual offending at an age of six, seven, eight, nine years of age, where they would have no idea about pornography at all, much less been exposed to it or spent much time looking at it. So, yet again there isn't necessarily a causal link.

It is true to say, though, that there is an association between child pornography and sexual offending, in that some sexual offenders use pornography in a variety of ways, and particularly images of children in a variety of ways. And some of those are to groom children, to normalise sexual behaviour of children, some of them use it for their own sexual arousal before offending so for their own gratification, and a number of men who sexually abuse children also create images of those children for their own use or for distribution. With adolescents and with men who sexually assault children, the images that they use are not always the images that we would typically associate with pornography. For example, a number of adolescent boys and men will use images of children that are otherwise innocent. So they would use images of children that are found in department store catalogues, that might be advertising children's underwear and other fairly mainstream magazines. So we have to be cautious about some of that as well when we are working with the boys that we work with on a day to day basis."

Question 3
What is different about pornography on the Internet?

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"I think the difference between the pornography on the Internet and the pornography that an adolescent might go to the corner diary or the local garage to buy, is that there's much less control for the adolescent when he turns on the computer or goes into the Internet than there is when he goes to the local shop. And I think there's number of differences. The volume of material that he can be subject to on the Internet is exponentially larger than anything he will find in the corner diary, so there's an issue of volume.

There's also the unrestricted nature of it. In a corner diary or in a local garage or wherever the shelf is, there is some restriction in that the boy has to find the magazine, he has to actually take it and purchase it, and sometimes there are age restrictions. There are just a number of barriers in the way of his actually obtaining that material, whereas on the Internet, there's almost no restriction at all, unless there is some sort of screening technology installed on that computer. And even that is not fool proof to many technologically minded adolescents.

Then there's the issue of the type of material that is available on the Internet that's just not available at the corner store or at the gas station. We are talking about, obviously, sexual images of children, we are talking about images that are incredibly violent or involve some bizarre or quite lethal sexual practices. And, in an indiscriminate way, a boy can be exposed to those images, in a way that is quite beyond his control and in a way in which he may not be expecting. If he goes to the corner store and he buys a Penthouse, he will have a reasonable idea from looking at the front cover, and probably from having looked at his mate's or his dad's or his older brother's or whoever's, of what he is going to find inside. Whereas if he clicks on the site on the Internet, he may have no idea of what he is going to be in for. And I think it's probably fair to say that some adolescents would be fairly traumatised and disturbed by what they see and we have no way, really, of knowing what impact that can have on some adolescents."

Question 4
When young people find extreme sorts of material, what effect does it have on them?

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"When we talk about kids that assumes that we are not just talking about adolescents, that we are also talking about primary school-aged children and intermediate school-aged children. I think that it is important to recognise that many children of those ages are quite computer literate and they are going to be potentially accessing this kind of material quite innocently. A number of pornographers will use key words in their sites that are quite innocent words so that children who are doing a perfectly innocent homework assignment or perfectly innocent search on the computer will accidentally stumble upon some of these sites. These can be quite young children.

I think we don't know what effect this will have on the relatively normally functioning adolescent boy, let's say. I think I'm prepared to believe that while most of this will be motivated by curiosity. While it wouldn't be within the bounds of normal for a boy to turn up at school or to be around home with some images of child pornography or sexual violent pornography, I think its in the bounds of normal for adolescent boys to turn up at school with an image or two off the Internet of sexual images of children or of sexual violence. And what those boys will be doing is probably displaying those to their friends in an underhand way, but in a way in which their peers will know about. And the images will be of a relatively small number and it will be motivated by curiosity, and there might be even be some humour associated with it. Even though that sounds an incredibly sick thing to say, many adolescent males find images of sex of whatever sort kind of crudely humorous and fascinating. So I think that's within my definition of what's normal. I'm talking about the boys that present as healthy, functioning kids, as kids who have good, solid peer relationships, who have no major problem behaviours, who are socially well-adjusted young people. And if those kids turned up at school with those kinds of images, or those kids are found with those kinds of images in small numbers, and their peers are kind of involved in that, I would not be dreadfully concerned. I wouldn't take that kid into a treatment program, for example.

The kind of behaviours and the kinds of kids that we should be worried about are the kids who are the vulnerable ones. Those who are socially isolated from their peers, those who have difficulty forming peer relationships, those who have histories of bullying younger children, those who have histories of sexually-worrying behaviour, those who also may show an interest in otherwise innocent images of children like the mainstream magazine pictures of children or other ordinary pictures of children. I think we should be concerned about those kids and, if they show up at school or if they have collections or they have numbers of images of children engaged in sexual activity, then I would certainly be concerned.

I think we have to look at a number of factors when we look at the kinds of material that they are collecting and the way in which they are collecting it. If that material involves a large number of images, and I don't know what a large number is but I would think more than 3 or 4 images, I would be starting to concern myself. If this were repeat behaviour, if he turned up on a couple of occasions or more with these kinds of images, I would be concerned. If the boy's behaviour was abusive, or threatening or intimidating to peers, or sometimes to teachers at school or to younger children, I would be concerned. If he had made those images himself, if they were photographs or pieces of video that he had made himself, of almost whatever sort, I would be concerned about that. If he was collecting otherwise normal images of children and turned up at school with some sexual images of children, then I would be concerned.

If he turned up with a number of items that he had downloaded off the Internet and included in the whole range of material that was, I suppose to express crudely, soft pornography, included in that number of images were a couple of images of children or a couple of images that were sexually violent, I might not worry so much. But if he showed a fixation, if his collection was exclusively violent or exclusively about children, then I would worry. If he was trading in that material, if he was swapping with other boys or with other kids at school, those kinds of images and especially if it was for money, quite apart from it being illegal, I would also worry about that.

If he was displaying that to friends in a way that was reasonably open among his peers (I'm sure he wouldn't be open with teachers with that, although that would be cause for concern too) but if he was displaying that in a relatively peer-normal way, in that he was showing it in a kind of curiosity way to kids, I wouldn't worry so much. But if it was restricted to one or two kids, and he was showing that in a very secretive way or even in a manipulative way or in a forceful way, I would be concerned.

The important thing when saying or listing those characteristics is not to take any one of those in isolation. One of those characteristics would cause concern, more than one of them would cause real concern and certainly a number of them together, that boy should be referred for some specialist assessment and some treatment. The way in which that help could be obtained or should be obtained, and I think this message would be the same for schools as it would be for parents or anybody else in the community, is that government agencies like Child, Youth and Family or the Police may need to be involved, or certainly some consultation with expert counsellors or therapists in this field. This is not a problem to be taken lightly and to be swept under the carpet. If you see a boy who is presenting at school or at home with material like I have described, and in the way in which I've described, and he displays some of the characteristics of that socially isolated, withdrawn boy, he is a boy who is much more likely to go on to commit sexual offences against children or against others. And that needs to be taken seriously and acted on."

Question 5
In your experience, do young people who have an interest in pornography have a parent (s) with an interest in porn?

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"Most of the young people who we would see in our treatment programme, who have access to pornography, would talk to us about having access to pornography at home. It is my common experience to talk with mums and dads and to ask them whether or not there is pornography at home or whether they possess pornography. 9 times out of 10, probably understandably, they'll deny that. Sadly, what we are then told by the boy who is in our programme, is that they are well aware that dad has a collection of pornography and they have been accessing that quite regularly and readily. I would imagine mostly without dad knowing. So the truth is that if parents do have a collection of pornography, there's almost a guarantee that their boy will find it and will be using that to some extent."

Question 6
If you are a parent and you find that your son has been visiting porn sites on the home computer, what should you do?

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"I think that if you are a parent who suddenly finds that your son or your child has been accessing or has been exposed to pornography on the Internet, I suppose the first thing to do is to talk with your child about what that's about, to try and get some sense for yourself about where this fits in for your child in the greater scheme of things. If you do have concerns at all or questions that need to be answered for you, then I think you should get some help and consult somebody. And that might be that you call the school guidance counsellor who would have access to information perhaps through this web-site and through networks of other guidance counsellors. You might call somebody at the SAFE programme or one of the other treatment programs, the STOP programme in Wellington or the STOP programme in Christchurch and consult with them about whether this is something you should worry about. You might also talk with your friends who are parents to see what their experience is and to get some sense for yourself about the relative "normalness" of this behaviour for your child.

In any event, what I think all parents should do is have some rules around computer use in their home, in the same way that we have rules around child restraints in cars and safety rules around alcohol and drugs and those sorts of things. It's important that parents know that there are risks for kids in using the Internet and that they need to educate their kids about that and take some practical steps to minimise those risks. One of the most simple and important things that you can do in your home is to have the computer in a place that is a public place in your house. Many of the kids that we work with in the treatment programme are kids who have secret access to the computer. So mums and dads have computers sitting in the children's bedrooms and they think that the child is doing their homework or doing some legitimate search on the computer, and in fact they are doing anything but. And putting the computer in the lounge room or in an open part of the house that everybody has access to, minimise risks immediately.

There are also a number of different kinds of technology that can be used here. The Net Nannies and some of those screening tools should be examined by you and installed on your computer. Also be aware that many of our kids are much more computer literate than their parents, so it is really important that parents update themselves on the piece of technology that sits in their house. Educating yourself about computers and on computer use can be done reasonably simply and cheaply. In fact, there's probably a class or some access to computers and to computer training at your local school and that may be worth pursuing.

The other source of information for parents is of course the Internet Safety Kit and other information available on this website. There is a free phone number that parents could call for further information if you have concerns about your child and that number is 0508 NETSAFE. It probably appears somewhere else on this site so that you can access that as you need."

Question 7
If you are a guidance counsellor and you find out about a boy who has sold illegal child porn images around the school, what do you do besides informing the Principal immediately, for this is a serious legal and disciplinary issue.

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"The first thing is to do something, its not to do nothing, and you must take this seriously. I think you need to look at the material that the boy is distributing at school and, if he is selling material at school, you need to have a look at whether the material could be illegal or not. If you think that it might be or if you are unsure, then the best thing to do is to pick up the phone and call the Department of Internal Affairs. They will consult with you over the phone and advise you on how to act if the material is illegal.

If the material is legal, and if the Department of Internal Affairs don't want to proceed with the matter themselves, then I think you've got some choices about what you do. Obviously, you would want to involve and inform the parents of the child in concern and the parents of any other children concerned and make some sort assessment for yourself from your knowledge of the type of boy that you are dealing with. You'll know the boy at school, you will know his other behaviours, you'll know generally how he is at school and you could think about the kind of characteristics that have been talked about earlier in this interview, the kind of worrying characteristics of some of the kids that might present this material at school and for whom you would and should have concerns.

I think there are 3 main approaches you can take, depending on the boy and depending on the kind of material. The first is a straight disciplinary approach and I think that would be for the boy who has, maybe, done this as a one-off thing. A boy who is otherwise relatively normally functioning and well behaved at school, for whom you have no concerns and where the parents take it seriously and will take some action. I am assuming in saying this that the material is legal. I think a second approach is an educative approach and that might be for a boy who, again, this might be a one-off occasion or it might even be a second occasion. But a boy for whom you might have some concerns, or who is resistant to your expressions of concern, or where the family might be resistant to you expressions of concern. I think you need to engage the boy and his family in some kind of educative process certainly about school rules and about appropriate behaviour, about the Internet, about the use of that, about some strategies that mum and dad could use. And also ensuring that the boy is educated in some way about the harmful impact about pornography on him and on others.

The last approach you have is a treatment approach and that's probably not something that the average guidance counsellors will want to take on themselves. But that is an approach where you would have this with repeat behaviour, or maybe even persistent behaviour, and that the material is more exclusively focused on images of children and sexual violence, and with some of the characteristics that I talked about earlier on in the interview. For those kids, I wouldn't hesitate to pick up the phone and refer that boy to the Department of Child, Youth and Family. And why I say that is because often the Department of Child, Youth and Family may have other concerns noted already in their records about that boy, and when you add their information to your information, it may present a whole different picture to the one that you are getting at school. And I would then expect that the Department of Child, Youth and Family would arrange for an expert assessment for that boy and you could be guided accordingly by the person, by the organisation, doing that assessment."

Steve O'Brien of Department of Internal Affairs - Censorship Compliance offered this interesting observation about the law in New Zealand regarding objectionable material as relates to this last video question. "I think it is worth noting section 125 of the Act: Offences of strict liability involving restricted publications - Every person commits an offence against this Act who supplies, distributes, exhibits, displays, or otherwise deals with a restricted publication otherwise than in accordance with the classification assigned to that publication under this Act.' In other words, if someone shows a restricted publication to a child they are committing an offence." For more information about the Film, Video and Publications Act you can visit the Community Contacts Page of Netsafe where there is a link to the Censorship Compliance site.